by Max Barry

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Aye

Aye

Andusre, Ashlawn, Brototh, Dendrobium, Islonia, Marvinville, Pap sculgief, Rayekka, World Trade

Antenion
The bill successfully passes 9-0.
We have now begun debating this treaty proposed by Andusre
nation=andusre/detail=factbook/id=1433021

Pap sculgief, Indian genius, Titanne, and The Bigtopia

I think this proposition is a necessity for the region. Not only will it raise our reputation internationally but will increase our recruitment standards, and protect us from being recruited from. I urge all Senators to support and pass this

The marconian state, Indian genius, Titanne, and The Bigtopia

While I agree we certainly need an agreement like this, I am doubtful this is the exact treaty Thaecia needs, especially when concerning the "reputation" or "standards" of our recruitment program and region itself.

Firstly, a large majority of the signatories in this declaration have either long gone inactive or become neglectable in seize. With some exceptions, like Lazarus, USSD, Enadia, The Communist Bloc or Europeia, there are no regions a treaty like this with would add anything to the Thaecian reputation internationally. I say if we wish to allign ourselves with any meaningful regions, like those mentioned above, we do so by establishing Embassies with said meaningful regions or by writing new treaties, again, with said regions. Such Embassies or new treaties, I believe, would hold much more meaning to them and would add way more to our and our recruitment's reputation than this one would.

Besides all that, this "declaration" holds some questionable content. I am of course talking about topics like how "satisfactory evidence" is not really difined in a proper way and can easily be neglected depending on how it is handled. Not only that, but any and all signatories fall under the control of the so called "registar", who under any circumstances will be the Europeian President and, from what is included in this "declaration", never has to give any reason or justification for their actions concerning the treaty.

Lastly I urge all Senators and others to not be fooled by the idea that this treaty would protect us from recruitment by other signatories, or worse. It is clearly stated that regions who are part of this treaty can still freely recruit from other signatories if they give the previously mentioned, undefined "satisfactory justification", a negelctable manner of defense. Or, in case they don't even wish to do the efford for coming up with that, if they are at war with the region they simultaniously recruit from, and since Thaecia currently does not have a military, something I presonally stand behind but must still be mentioned, we would be greatly at a disatvantage in such a situation. If anything, this goes to show that this treaty holds no values or standards concerning recruitment programs or security for the signatories.

These are my concerns about this so called "declaration" I wanted to share with the members and readers or this House, and I hope they have come across well enough. I am an honest supporter of international co-operation, but only if Thaecia won't come out worse of such. That is Why I do not and can not support this treaty and why I urge you all to support me in opposing this double-sided, morally-shortcoming and internationally neglectable treaty.

World Trade, Rayekka, Islonia, The marconian state, and 5 othersIndian genius, Brototh, Vjeresland, Marvinville, and The peoples caribbean union

While I feel standards absolutely necessary, and I originally thought this bill could do us good on the international stage. After Senator Dendrobium’s informative speech, I am not so fond or convinced this will do Thaecia much good. For now I think I will abstain unless any other Senators change my mind.

Islonia, Indian genius, Dendrobium, and Marvinville

I also agree with Senator Dendro's response to this treaty. I will vote Nay unless I am convinced why this treaty will benefit the region as a whole

Indian genius and Dendrobium

I wasn't so keen on signing such a treaty at first but, with what Dendro has pointed out in his speech, I plan on voting nay.

Indian genius, Dendrobium, and Marvinville

If agree with Rayekka's thoughts and will be voting abstain or nay.

Indian genius

I sponsor foreign affairs minister The Bigtopia to participate in this debate.

World Trade, Pap sculgief, The marconian state, Snowflame, and 3 othersIndian genius, Titanne, and The Bigtopia

Pap sculgief

Thaecia

I sponsor former President Titanne to speak and participate in this debate

Indian genius and The Bigtopia

Well first off, great to be back here, always loved the Senate, and thank you to Pap for sponsoring me to speak here. I appreciate your time and hope you'll consider my and The Bigtopia's arguments carefully.

Dendrobium wrote:While I agree we certainly need an agreement like this, I am doubtful this is the exact treaty Thaecia needs, especially when concerning the "reputation" or "standards" of our recruitment program and region itself.

Firstly, a large majority of the signatories in this declaration have either long gone inactive or become neglectable in size. With some exceptions, like Lazarus, USSD, Enadia, The Communist Bloc or Europeia, there are no regions a treaty like this with would add anything to the Thaecian reputation internationally. I say if we wish to allign ourselves with any meaningful regions, like those mentioned above, we do so by establishing Embassies with said meaningful regions or by writing new treaties, again, with said regions. Such Embassies or new treaties, I believe, would hold much more meaning to them and would add way more to our and our recruitment's reputation than this one would.

There seems to be a misconception here, that there will be any possibility of foreign affairs with these regions if we do not sign this declaration. With some regions, and I suspect Europeia is the same, an formal treaty is required before an embassy is constructed. If we ever want the idea of potentially getting an embassy with Europeia, the Europeian senate will have to consider a treaty. And I'm sure, their Senate will be interested to hear if we have signed the declaration. Foreign affairs aren't that simple, and there are often prerequisites for establishing diplomatic contact with other regions. Becoming a signatory of the Arnhelm Declaration is one of the biggest ones, and I am going to stop any illusion that a more expansive foreign affairs policy will be possible without it right here and right now. This is the baseline for the regions you named, and we will likely need to take further steps to get embassies as you are suggesting.

Dendrobium wrote:Besides all that, this "declaration" holds some questionable content. I am of course talking about topics like how "satisfactory evidence" is not really difined in a proper way and can easily be neglected depending on how it is handled. Not only that, but any and all signatories fall under the control of the so called "registar", who under any circumstances will be the Europeian President and, from what is included in this "declaration", never has to give any reason or justification for their actions concerning the treaty.

Now this is really just fear-mongering. We will be protected from the vast majority of any sort of recruitment from these regions, something which we certainly don't have now and won't be able to get any other way. As for the leeway and vagueness you mentioned that is afforded to other signatories: it's necessary in this sort of treaty. It will apply to us to, it's also worth noting. Sometimes things happen and arrangements need to be made, and I don't see any sort of issue with that, especially given that we'd be afforded the same priveleges as a signatory. If it weren't there, and we did enter, there would still be complaints that the wording was too harsh so really, this point is just rationalizing a misleading and untruthful claim.

Dendrobium wrote:Lastly I urge all Senators and others to not be fooled by the idea that this treaty would protect us from recruitment by other signatories, or worse. It is clearly stated that regions who are part of this treaty can still freely recruit from other signatories if they give the previously mentioned, undefined "satisfactory justification", a negelctable manner of defense. Or, in case they don't even wish to do the efford for coming up with that, if they are at war with the region they simultaniously recruit from, and since Thaecia currently does not have a military, something I presonally stand behind but must still be mentioned, we would be greatly at a disatvantage in such a situation. If anything, this goes to show that this treaty holds no values or standards concerning recruitment programs or security for the signatories.

See above. And also, the fact that Thaecia doesn't have a regional military kind of undercuts your point here. We can't really be at war with someone without a military, so I'm unsure what you're trying to say. We've also seen statements from a prominent Europeian, Peeps, who is the leader of their military, saying that this part of the treaty has not ever been abused to his knowledge and experience in NationStates.

Dendrobium wrote:These are my concerns about this so called "declaration" I wanted to share with the members and readers or this House, and I hope they have come across well enough. I am an honest supporter of international co-operation, but only if Thaecia won't come out worse of such. That is Why I do not and can not support this treaty and why I urge you all to support me in opposing this double-sided, morally-shortcoming and internationally neglectable treaty.

What seems to be implied here is that the treaty somehow hurts Thaecia. It doesn't. We are protected from recruitment from other regions and lose very little in who we can recruit from. The treaty does quite a bit to boost our international standing and establishes a basis for diplomatic contact with several major regions, like Europeia, Lazarus, and the Communist Bloc. I fail to see any reprecussions from this action and would also like to point out that if we proposed this treaty, as we have, and then failed to pass it, that looks bad for our region. And especially if it's due to misconceptions and misunderstandings like those utilized in your argument here, Senators. Thank you for your time.

Ashlawn, Rayekka, Pap sculgief, The marconian state, and 4 othersSnowflame, Andusre, Indian genius, and The Bigtopia

Dendrobium wrote:Firstly, a large majority of the signatories in this declaration have either long gone inactive or become neglectable in seize.

And that's (arguably) a good thing. The ADRS is a pretty well-known declaration, and if a large number of its signatories are essentially no longer functioning regions, they are not going to be recruiting from us. Dead regions don't recruit. They still add weight to this declaration.

Dendrobium wrote:With some exceptions, like Lazarus, USSD, Enadia, The Communist Bloc or Europeia, there are no regions a treaty like this with would add anything to the Thaecian reputation internationally.

Firstly, Lazarus is not a signatory of the ADRS. Lazarus is a GCR, and thus is ineligible to become a signatory. But anyway,
TCB and Europeia are still fairly large regions, which aren't worth shrugging off imo. Besides, the impact of signing this declaration goes beyond just the signatories. Just the act of being a signatory is diplomatically beneficial in and of itself - even to other regions which are not signatories. Especially given our now-historic recruitment practices.

Dendrobium wrote:I say if we wish to allign ourselves with any meaningful regions, like those mentioned above, we do so by establishing Embassies with said meaningful regions or by writing new treaties, again, with said regions. Such Embassies or new treaties, I believe, would hold much more meaning to them and would add way more to our and our recruitment's reputation than this one would.

It is no where near as easy as this, take it from a senior diplomat. Treaties take multiple days' worth of hours to set up, negotiate, write and ratify. They are enormously arduous processes which take months to complete each. To name an example: our embassy with The East Pacific (which was set up because Marrabuk took the unusual/irregular decision to bypass normal embassy requirements for us) was established 183 days ago, on March 19th 2020. The treaty which we ratified with TEP was ratified 52 days ago, on July 28th 2020 (the treaty itself was not fully ratified until later as TEP's magisterium took longer than we did to agree, but anyway). That is a gap of around 130 days, or a little over 4 months between embassy establishment and treaty ratification. Bear in mind, too, that embassies normally are not constructed until after treaties have been ratified. Treaties take a lot of time to make, and any facilitation (e.g. in the form of this declaration) is not just desirable - it's necessary.
Also, as Titanne mentioned, often times declarations like these are required pre-requisites for many regions before they can even consider treaties and embassies.

Dendrobium wrote:Besides all that, this "declaration" holds some questionable content. I am of course talking about topics like how "satisfactory evidence" is not really difined in a proper way and can easily be neglected depending on how it is handled.

Europeia is a very trusted region and friend of ours which has existed for a very, very long time (it was founded in 2007). They can be trusted to handle cases of improper recruitment and their government is responsible, stable and competent enough to consider/handle such events with the due impartiality and fairness. Even if, miraculously, they botch a handling, we reserve the right to raise this with them and, if it is heinous enough, withdraw from the declaration.

Dendrobium wrote:Not only that, but any and all signatories fall under the control of the so called "registar", who under any circumstances will be the Europeian President and, from what is included in this "declaration", never has to give any reason or justification for their actions concerning the treaty.

Saying that signatories "fall under the control of.. the Europeian President" is very very misleading. We are not giving up any regional sovereignty here. If we were, Biggs, Kors, I and others would not have even considered bringing this declaration to the Senate today.

Dendrobium wrote:Lastly I urge all Senators and others to not be fooled by the idea that this treaty would protect us from recruitment by other signatories, or worse. It is clearly stated that regions who are part of this treaty can still freely recruit from other signatories if they give the previously mentioned, undefined "satisfactory justification", a neglectable manner of defense.

And it goes both ways - we can still recruit from them with "satisfactory justification". It's not like we alone are having our hands tied whilst all the other signatories get to recruit from us. The entire idea behind the ADRS is that it is a mutual and fair agreement among UCRs not to recruit from each other.

Dendrobium wrote:Or, in case they don't even wish to do the efford for coming up with that, if they are at war with the region they simultaniously recruit from, and since Thaecia currently does not have a military, something I presonally stand behind but must still be mentioned, we would be greatly at a disatvantage in such a situation. If anything, this goes to show that this treaty holds no values or standards concerning recruitment programs or security for the signatories.

"Warfare" is not really a thing on NS. There's raiding and defending, which comes close to what you described, but this is not warfare, and they do not impact a region's recruitment most of the time. Regardless, we are a neutral R/D region, and as far as I know we have no intention of getting involved in that side of NS, so I feel this point is rather moot. We are also virtually unraidable due to our size and having an active founder.

I won't address the last paragraph as I feel it is a tad melodramatic and acts as a closing statement rather than introducing a new argument for me to attempt to rebut.

Ashlawn, Rayekka, Pap sculgief, Indian genius, and 3 othersTitanne, The Bigtopia, and Vjeresland

Hey Senators! It's certainly been a while...

It might seem like a long statement but, y'know, Dendro's was fairly long too. It's worth reading.

First things first, as you may recall Thaecia has been pursuing, instead of aggressive recruitment, aggressive foreign affairs. We've drawn together with other regions, including Europeia with the Thaecia Week event, 21st Century Rome in a gamenight, and nearly all of our embassy regions with Late Nite Festival. Already, strategies are being drawn up around our faction for N-day where we are working with the other regions in the newly-formed Consortium and a number of our other allies.

In fact, nowadays the only real concern that I hear from the wider NS community about our region is... you guessed it, our past WA recruitment. And, you see, we in the FAM have no real guarantee that no more will be sent out, as the recruitment policy statements released sometime in July pertain only to our current government. There is no telling what recruitment our future Prime Ministers and Presidents will pursue.

And to me, as the soon-to-be outgoing Foreign Affairs Minister, this is highly worrying. You see, everything that has been built up over the last few months could easily fall apart from a single WA-wide recruitment telegram. You see, it's our allies' understanding that we've stopped sending them. We'd certainly lose relations with Europeia, The Free Nations Region, and very possibly The East Pacific. I could easily see us being booted from The Consortium. A single WA bomb from a future PM could bring us back to ground zero. Foreign Affairs would stop being so much fun. I'm not exaggerating here, and I truly am worried that all that we've built up will be destroyed.

However, the treaty is not at all simply preventative. It's the best way we have to show everyone that we're serious about WA recruitment's end. As Titanne said, it could be a nice gateway into furthering relations with our consulates and in the formation of more consulates and more embassies. This is the next step to take in foreign policy. This gets us places. It shows them that we are done.

You see, the talk I have nearly every time I'm trying to get a consulate or embassy off the ground is about how Thaecia does WA recruitment. I show them the statements and tell em we don't. It typically doesn't bode too well. The embassy or consulate might not happen. People know arnhelm and know that it's legit.

But, it in no way creates relations with these regions. This in no way means we'll have relations with Enadia. That's a dumb argument. It's an agreement we're signing that has nothing to do with establishing diplomatic relations they have signed. So have a bunch of other regions. It really just will mean the end of WA recruitment. With all due respect the arguments about how this treaty will somehow 'screw us over' due to the language is stupid. Those effects of the treaty, as far as I have seen, haven't been put into effect and would be ineffective anyways.

This is not a bill. The specifics here matter much less.

And it's not a good idea to make our own bill or treaty that does the same thing. While it's preventative it doesn't actually do any good with furthering relations. In fact, it could very well be damaging.

A key part of Foreign affairs is asking the question: what message does that put out? The message that rejecting outright the already existing and well known treaty in favor of making our own is not gonna play out well. It doesn't tell them that we're serious. It tells them that we aren't serious about it. The things that they will say are gonna be 'Thaecia rejected Arnhelm treaty, guess nothing changed after all', not 'Thaecia didn't like the language so they made their own.'

This shows them we're serious. This stops all our progress from being turned on its head. This won't screw us over. This lets us go to a whole new level with Foreign Affairs, and I promise that my ministry will deliver.

Senators, I urge you to vote in the affirmation. I know Foreign Affairs - I've been FAM for eight months now. We've done a lot since. We could do a lot more with this.

Ashlawn, World Trade, Rayekka, Pap sculgief, and 5 othersThe marconian state, Andusre, Titanne, Broustan, and Vjeresland

Interesting

Ashlawn, World Trade, The marconian state, Titanne, and 3 othersThe Bigtopia, Vjeresland, and The peoples caribbean union

Chairman brototh

with the passing of the Senate Procedures Act in the House of Commons and it thus becoming law I have decided to appoint two deputies:

first of all, Andusre, as my inspiration for running for congress in the first place, and for becoming chair
also my partymate and good friend who i would trust with chairmanship job if i didn't run

second, Ashlawn
as a new senator i feel it's good for him to get experience, but i also feel that he's been quite active and involved recently, especially with the closing of votes, helping me keep up to date with the docket and chairman account, etc, and i'm very excited to see where he takes his legislative career next

am hoping we can all agree with this and i dont need 55 TGs saying wHWy diD yOU pICK [X] and not [Y] bZzhHhzhZHhzH

I'm sorry I haven't publicly shared my thoughts on this bill sooner, I haven't really had the time.
This bill has been a difficult one for me to decide on, and I originally was considering abstaining. I felt that most regions that were part of the treaty were small and inactive, so it wouldn't really provide much benefit, but I certainly didn't want to influence my fellow Senators into voting nay, and I could see some benefit to this bill. Dendro's statement seemingly confirmed this in my mind, but I still wanted to here what others thought. Then Titanne and Biggs were sponsored to talk here, and that changed everything. I feel like both of these experienced members of our region brought up good points, and they really opened my eyes. It now seems obvious to vote aye on this bill. I never really thought much bad could come from it, but I have now been shown just how much good this could do.
(Sorry if this is a poor quality response, I can't get to my laptop at the moment)

Titanne and The Bigtopia

Sorry for long debate
Dendro informed me they would like to make a statement, however are in the process of preparing for a weekend away
it's all in #senate
Seeing as this bill has been quite big I would like to see Dendro's response

World Trade, Pap sculgief, and The Bigtopia

just wanted to let yall know i came back home today but im really tired and not really feeling like writing up a whole response dealing with everything that has been said, i still stand by my earlier statements and the main counter agruments seemed to be that foreign affairs take a lot of time and that my arguments were often based on misconceptions
- fam is something i have a lot of respect for and i understand treaties can make the job easier, but here i again still stand by my opinion i made clear earlier on this exact treaty
- the misconceptions part imo just goes to show how what i did wasnt "nitpicking" or the like, but just strengthens my argument that this treaty isnt what we need when there can be important "misconceptions" and with that dangers to it
im sorry for keeping everyone waiting for so long, i had expected there to be more spare time and you know wifi in the place i stayed so hopefully yall can excuse me for keeping everyone up with anticipation just for a message like this, ill repost it on ns/discord and this can be seen as my "officia" response with which i dont mind the debate ending

Opening of Voting - The Ratification of the Arnhelm Declaration of Recruitment Standards

Senators, with consent of Chairman Brototh, I now open the voting on the ratification of the ADRS.

My vote is Aye.

Titanne and The Bigtopia

Nay

In light of recent statements by our FAM and others, I now see that the benefits far outweigh any disadvantages with the treaty. Therefore I vote Aye on the treaty.

Aye.

Aye

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