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...uh m8 I'm the guy that said that cousins should be allowed to marry. Dernel is the one that's against that. Also letting the government sterilize people "for the good of the gene pool" is exactly something the nazis would (and did) do.
Free market buisnesses and Moaning Lisa
They weren't doing it so cousins could marry. They were doing it for racial purification. It's a huge difference, especially in implementation. Don't compare us to nazis again. We were polite in saying it the first two times.
Except that it is unnecessary to the ends posted. Since we are forced in a capitalist society, the current day combination or lack of opportunities (work, housing, and so on) is more than enough force to sterilize people (the demographics pyramids in Europe) are pretty clear.
Besides, instead of doing the brute, inefficient and morally bankrupt way, you have only to offer economic incentives to push in one direction (plus media campaigns in that order). Besides, preimplantation genetic diagnosis and other maternal care are enough to catch some of the worst problems.
Although some of the more subtle effects pass on. Besides, the genetic counseling to stop genetic problems can be and has been done on a voluntary basis even with religious support.
In most programs, carrier screening and counseling are being performed on a voluntary basis. In Cyprus, however, the Orthodox church requires a certificate proving that screening for β-thalassemia has been performed before marriage, but allows the final decision on marriage and a reproduction option to be left to the couple (Angastiniotis and Hadjiminas 1981; Kalokairinou 2007). When Cyprus became a member of the European Union in 2004, the requirement for this certification became unnecessary for civil weddings (Kolnagou and Kontoghiorghes 2009). In a number of Muslim countries including Lebanon, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar, and Gaza Strip (Samavat and Modell 2004; Inati et al. 2006), the national premarital programs are mandatory and aimed at limiting carrier marriage. In most of these countries, nowadays, interruption of the pregnancy is permitted for severe fetal disorders but only within the fourth month of gestation. In China, prenatal screening was compulsory to obtain marriage permission by the marriage law office (Li 2009). Because of worldwide criticism, the requirement for a certificate of premarital screening was withdrawn.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3552345/
P.S. It is a bit tiring the use of the "nazi" card every time human genetics are discussed.
Leonism and Arclandia
Nice Job Honeydewistania on being commended!
Delta Vega IV, New vedan, Honeydewistania, Leonism, and 2 othersCossack Peoples, and Arclandia
Yeah, it'd be expected not funny.
But that'll be fixable soon enough, so who cares? Also, does that statistic apply to new mutations or recessive genes?
To my knowledge the Denisovans, Neanderthals, and Homo sapiens are/were all subspecies of human. I wouldn't compare that to modern ethnicities or whatever, because that isn't a good can of worms to open and reeks of white mans burden and imperialism.
Subspecies, so they'd be Homo sapiens denisova probably.
They were doing it to keep out genetic defects. Their version of a defect included being black, but still to remove defects. They were slightly insane—shocking I know—so they might've considered encouraging inbreeding at some point, although considering the "freedom" they gave their scientists, that would have been short lived.
Now I may believe in heavy welfare, high taxes, and in cameras recording everything—I wouldn't call it surveillance, because it's complicated—but I am still a liberal damn it, so let people do whatever they want; we can fix it later.
New vedan and Moaning Lisa
Our citizens are free to emigrate should they find our policies or the rationale behind them untenable. That notwithstanding, we're a Scandinavian liberal paradise that's 61st in the region for integrity while you're in the top 5% in the region for corruption. You'll forgive us for disregarding lectures from the likes of you about rights and nazis.
Was I meant to be in character for this discussion?
Arclandia and Moaning Lisa
{OoC: I am always in character unless I have specified otherwise like this. I'm not really concerned about whether others are IC. I just assume people are representing as their nations -- if they are never IC, I take their nation to represent who they are as a person. If they are always IC, I take them to represent their country. Either way, no Arclandian is entertaining subpar rhetoric about ethics from a nation or person who doesn't sport the stats to suggest that they take rights seriously.}
Wait you've been in charecter this while time? I thought this was a OOC discussion.
Free market buisnesses, Arclandia, and Moaning Lisa
{OoC: Since no one ever specifies who their mains and puppets are, I just react to each nation as a different person unless it's heckin' obvi that they're RP-mast*rb*ting themselves on the forums. I can't micromanage who owns what puppet around here! LoL In my headcanon around here, every nation is independent of every other nation and run by different people unless otherwise specified. I don't expect anyone else to keep track of who my puppets are.}
OOC: Personally I think it should be obvious that this was an OOC discussion, but when in doubt I always recommend people use the OOC/IC tags to clarify their posts.
This friendly dose of Lazarene mod wisdom was brought to you by Leonism (the player) rather than Imperator Konsul Leo I. of the Imperium of Leonism.
{OoC: And that right there is why I'm so aggressive about my OoC tagging and staying IC otherwise.}
Leonism and Free market buisnesses
This is a puppet of my main, but my main isn't in Lazarus, so I'm using this to talk. Plus corporate RP + this nation just makes sense. I think I posted as Mesilatia here once, but that was unusual. Also, seriously, what do you think my political views are? Also, what's strange about talking to yourself?
I don't think there's anything strange about that.
Delta Vega IV, New vedan, Free market buisnesses, Intended hell, and 1 otherArclandia
{OoC: I don't actually perceive Free market buisnesses to be anything more than someone's personal experiment in creating the future US wherein it has finished its descent into corporate despotism just to see what that might look like. I have a similar experiment of my own running in Monetillia. I haven't been able to determine your political views through FMB because whether you RP or don't, you haven't posted things that deviate too far from FMB's ideological script. I have enjoyed that your posts always have the flavor of FMB even when you're posting OoC.}
{OoC: Nothing's strange about talking to oneself. In fact, my therapists say it's healthy as long as I know all the participants in the conversation are me! What's strange and even a little rude is bloating the forums going back and forth with oneself when others could be having a real conversation with each other.}
Delta Vega IV and Free market buisnesses
Why take the risk? Again, its not just the lives of the two, its the third as well, what reasoning can you give for changing someones life in a way that puts them at a disadvantage compared to a normal person born of a normal family? Is it not the point of progress to attempt to prevent things like this? Is the point of progress, science, and medicine not to minimize the chances of someone having an issue no matter how big or small? Why take the risk, and throw the progress we have made as a species out the window simply for an urge that can likely be satiated elsewhere in a more respectable manner?
You cannot guarantee that webbed toes or a seemingly equally unimportant issue will be the change, or even the only change. As you perform these actions, you increase the possibility of ruining someones life, and that is the issue. Even if it were just a 1% for a normal child to have a severe issue, by having a child created through incest you increase that chance. That is the scientific reason why it is immoral, this doesn't even begin to explain the societal or religious reasons that something like this is immoral.
put in child terms:
You cannot encourage bad behavior with more bad behavior.
In the end you asked for a reason why it is considered wrong, I have given my reasons, others can if they choose, but I will not go on further as this is simply an opinionated topic that likely neither will change. (At least I certainly will not)
But you aren't changing anyone's life. That third life wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for those two specific people having it. If I was right now to choose between being born with a birth defect vs not being born at all I'd take the birth defect. After all, the inbred person can later in life choose to commit suicide if they want to. I'd personally be okay with killing off the inbred children that literally have no agency and are braindead, but if they just have some birth defect that makes their life a bit harder I don't see why we should be worried about that when the alternative is them not being born at all.
Plus incest doesn't have to result in a child. Would you allow two brothers to have sex, or two sisters, or a brother and a sister using protection?
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