NationStates | Dispatch | Decision Log No. 6

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by The Agency of Geopolity Customs. 1 year 116 days ago. 114 reads.

Decision Log No. 6

- Regional Administration Decision Log No. 6 -

This log details the facts, decision, and individual opinions of the Regional Administration surrounding a complaint of rule breach lodged by a player.

The Facts

On 27 December 2022, a coordinator raised the following complaint against 4 players:

"Discriminatory statements by [the 4] server members caused 5 other citizens of Geopolity extreme discomfort. One member of the targeted category felt so uncomfortable that she left the server. Based on Geopolity’s rules against bigotry and rude behaviour towards server members, these actions should be condemned."

The events transpired on 26 December 2022.

The 4 players are Kalmar, Turkey, Japan, and Malta.

35 screenshots were raised to substantiate the complaint.

They are as follows. The pertinent portions have been converted into text and condensed. Each break in paragraph indicates a successive image.

The 4 individuals are labelled as K, T, J, and M respectively. Third parties are labelled as 3. As much personal characteristics and identifying information as possible has been redacted to the best of our ability.

Images 1-2

[00:55]3: that's a fùcked up way of saying they deserved it at that point
[00:56]T: Of course no one deserves it
But you gotta defend yourself at any means necessary
[00:56]3: imagine being a victim of something...and someone decides to tell you "shoulda defended yourself"

Images 3-4

[01:19]3: im leaving the server; not permanently but this convo is strressing me out and i cant make myself not talk here any other way

Images 5-6

[01:22]3: https://tenor.com/view/blinking-eyes-white-guy-blinking-meme-what-huh-gif-26334322 (quoting [1:21]J)
[01:25]3: isn't the point of giving people PBs to help them feel better about themselves and not have dysphoria which can be something that leads to depression and suicidal thoughts and tendencies?
[01:25]J: I mean it’s bullying by other kids (quoting [1:25]3)
[01:25]3: that's just another reason
[01:26]3: i don't think you can truly understand someone's plight unless you've been there yourself or are really close with someone that's been there

Image 7

Image 8

Images 9-11

[01:40]3: Also you guys know that some people are gender neutral right?
[01:41]M: I despise [media outlet] for putting out that list
[01:41]M: What is genderneutral really
[01:41]M: Genuinely

[01:51]M: Ok so from my perspective, I see 3 genders. Male, Female and Hermaphrodite/Intersex. I base this off of their physical or mental perception of themselves (aside from people who claim to be intersex but do not have any intersex features). I do not believe in non-binary people or genderfluid people, but I will never attack them.
[01:51]M: Make sense?
[01:51]M: How can you have no gender
[01:51]M: Physically
[01:52]3: It makes perfect sense to me, but up to you to believe whatever you want
[01:52]K: Hot take

Images 12-16

[01:54]M: I mean if you don't have either and you just have a pisshole and a shíthole then damn well ig you don't have a gender
[01:54]M: But I don't see how you can identify
[01:55]M: Lop it off or sew it up (don't take my as a supporter of FGM in the latter statement)
[01:55]K: If Santa isn’t real, how do you explain why NORAD has a Santa tracking system developed by DARPA??
[01:55]3: You can identify as whatever you want lmao

[01:55]M: Can I identify as a fish?
[01:55]3: ...
[01:55]T: If you ask Matt Walsh, he will tell you that gender doesn’t exist. It’s a social construct that isn’t real and is 100% made up
Only biological sex exists. You’re either a biological male or a biological female
[01:56]K: https://tenor.com/view/fish-eating-fish-eating-from-spoon-feeding-fish-fish-food-yngqis-gif-20301545

[01:56]M: I'm not trying to mock anyone here, but I have multiple trans people I consider very close friends who are also annoyed by this whole 100 genders
[01:57]J: Can I identify as a RedBull Energy Drink?
[01:57]K: No (quoting [01:57]J)
[01:57]J: If I identified as a Capitalist you won’t be against that right?
[01:57]T: To be fair I e never met anyone who genuinely believes there’s an infinite number of genders
The most I’ve ever personally met are people who identify as non binary...

Image 17-28

[01:58]J: Non-binary are they/them right?
[01:58]T: Ye
[01:58]M: If they have nothing down under, then sure
[01:58]M: And if they are an adult
[01:58]M: Sure
[01:58]M: But children shouldn't be exposed to that kind of stuff
[01:58]M: Especially pubescent children!
[01:59]M: It serves only to confuse them more in the most confusing period of their lives
[01:59]M: Does anyone here agree with me?
[02:00]K: I agree (quoting [01:59]M)

[02:00]T: My personal rule is;
If you come at me with respect, you’ll get respect in return. If I slip up and accidentally refer to someone who’s non binary as he or she and they say “hey, I know it was a mistake but in the future could you please refer to me as they/them I would appreciate it” then I’ll apologize and correct myself in the future
If they get uppity about it and harass me and try to make me feel bad for making a mistake then I will intentionally go out of my way to continue to refer to them as their biological sex
[02:00]T: Yes (quoting [01:59]M)
[02:00]M: [3's handle]?
[02:01]3A: Yea?
[02:01]3: i don't understand the people that get pissy about other people's pronouns
[02:01]3B: i'm all for spiting people but where does it get us? lol
[02:01]M: I can call you they/them or he/him or /she/her but I ain't gonna tell a child they can be whatever gender they want
[02:01]3: pouring gasoline on a fire doesn't get rid of the fire afterall
[02:02]J: I agree (quoting [01:59]M)

[02:02]M: Do you agree that a child shouldn't be exposed to this kind of a thing in the most confusing time of their life? (quoting [02:01]3A)
[02:02]T: It’s not gonna fix the situation at all
But my goal isn’t to fix the situation. My goal is to match their energy. And I’ll apologize when they do and not a moment before (quoting [02:01]3B)
[02:02]M: It will only confuse them more
[02:02]3: No, sorry I disagree with you
[02:02]3: Children should be allowed to learn and grow and develop
[02:02]M: Learning is fine
[02:02]3: are we going on about telling younger people that people beyond straight and cis people exist or other stuff?
[02:02]3: or something else?

[02:03]M: ...I'm all for education (quoting [02:02]3)
[02:03]M: But it crosses a line at some point
[02:03]M: When children are told there are 100 genders
[02:03]J: ^^^ (quoting [02:03]M)
[02:03]3: because i see no problem in letting kids know that people exist that aren't just cis or straight
[02:03]T: Yea (quoting [02:03]M)
[02:03]3: see.., how often does that truly happen tho? (quoting [02:03]M)

[02:04]M: It happened nationwide in the [country name]
[02:04]3: i feel like people are taking something that happens little to none of the time and acting like it happens anywhere and everywhere
[02:04]M: The [media outlet] released a video and article which garnered nationwide attention
[02:04]T: Aren’t there doctors who are losing their jobs for refusing to acknowledge there’s more that 2 genders
[02:05]3: Again
[02:05]M: I don't think 12 million people is a rare occurrence tbh
[02:05]3: Non binary people do exist

[02:05]T: Non binary isn’t a gender it’s the absence of gender
[02:05]T: Because there’s 2 genders
[02:05]M: Aha
[02:05]M: Now that makes sense to me
[02:06]3: what about genderfluidity and the like?
[02:06]3: ^
[02:06]M: What is it?
[02:06]3: That is also a thing

[02:06]T: Then you’re male and or female depending on how you feel
[02:06]M: Tell me what it is
[02:06]M: How... how does it serve any purpose to teach a pubescent child that
[02:06]3: it goes beyond that sometimes, like with my partner
[02:06]M: Any at all
[02:07]3: They'll find out regardless lol
[02:07]T: I don’t really think it does
[02:07]M: How is it physically possible as well

[02:07]M: If someone genuinely feels that way, they need to fūcking well grow up and look at it themselves instead of having it spoonfed to em
[02:08]3: ?
[02:08]3: if they're genderfluid?
[02:09]3: What's the harm?

[02:11]T: I see an issue with the government talking to our kids about these kinds of things
These are discussions parents should have with kids
If you want to push that responsibility off to a school then find a private school that will teach them about this stuff
[02:11]M: The harm is that pubescent children are just that. Pubescent. During puberty you are experiencing hormonal imbalance and are incredibly confused with life and want attention and care. By all means, let those who feel they are different ask it for themselves, but having it be part of a curriculum/in national news isn't right because these teenagers struggling for attention will see this and just want to be part of something. (quoting [02:09]3)
[02:11]3: that's putting too much trust in parents (quoting [02:11]T)
[02:12]3: especially parents that are not exactly fans of LGBTQ people
[02:12]3: That wasn't even my question Malta

[02:17]M: We have been talking about gender
[02:18]M: Not sexual orientation
[02:18]M: Again, you go so far and then it becomes unacceptable imo, even with sexuality
[02:18]3: they're both similar in the sense of people and hating and discriminating on them

[02:22]M: What is genderfluidity
[02:22]3: one second my lad
[02:22]3: "Genderfluid is a non-binary gender identity . It is used to describe someone whose gender identity varies over time. A gender fluid person may at any time identify as male, female or non-binary."
[02:23]3: for example today my partner feels like a guy but other days they may feel female (their birth gender) or nothing or both
[02:23]J: That sounds confusing
[02:23]J: What do you refer to them as
[02:23]M: How is that physically possible
[02:23]M: Genuinely

Images 29-30

[02:24]3: i mean, i'm not gonna go into the details but there are ways to feel more.. in line i suppose
[02:25]3: fighting the dysphoria is prob the better term
[02:25]3: usually they tell me what they're feeling like so i know
[02:25]3: it's not the most complicated thing when you get used to it
[02:25]M): But how does it work? I can't just lop it off and stick it back on, can I? This is where I get angry because teaching confused minors that they can just switch about willy nilly is gonna cause problems
[02:25]M: It doesn't work in my mind
[02:26]3: What problems will it cause?
[02:26]M: I don't want to offend any of you

Images 31-35

[12:27]M: See I never once said they shouldn't be allowed to identify differently, and thus I think there is an element of misunderstanding here (maybe I did and didn't notice). I know for a fact that there is pressure being exerted on our youths about all of this in the education system, because I have many family members in it currently who reiterate my point. I also made it a specific point that I do respect them, but don't understand them in a way that can only be resolved with serious, hard evidence. I did also say that they should mention genders briefly. Overall, there has been an obvious misunderstanding here. I once again will say that I do in fact respect them and will abide by their pronouns. I have to go now, I will continue this later (quoting [12:19]3)

[13:12]T: I already don’t believe there’s more than two genders. Proponents of the idea of infinite genders themselves acknowledge that gender is a social construct. Meaning created by society and thus not a real scientific metric
You’re either born biologically male or biologically female. Your gender identity is something you formulate over the years as you grow up. Now, we do have medical procedures for people who were born one but think they should be the other and as long as you’re an adult I have no issue with anyone going through those procedures
But gender identity really just comes down to “I feel like I’m…”. It’s a feeling
So no if someone is being a dïck to me, I am under no moral obligation to validate their feelings on a matter I already disagree with them on. Especially the ones who try to charge you a fee for misgendering them. That’s just obnoxious

[13:51]3: Gender is societal and it varies by society. Sex is physical, while gender is not.
[13:51]3: Hence why there’s different conceptions of gender in different societies.
[14:03]T: Right. That just reinforced my point about it being a social construct
To me a Christian telling me to accept Christ or face an eternity hell and a person berating me accidentally misgendering them are about the same energy
If anything I’m actually more partial to the non-binary person than I am the religious person. Cuz I don’t follow the Christian faith. I don’t believe the Bible and I’m not going to tell you otherwise. I’ll be respectful of the faith and partake in traditions of the faith if invited to do so like when I’ve gone to church with friends or relatives
A non-binary person I will address properly if mutual respect is earned. It’s the few amount of cases where people are jerks about it that I’m not gonna waste my time trying to be respectful to them
[14:03]3: I’ve said this before, attack the person not their identity.
[14:04]3: If a non-binary person is an asshole to you by all means be an asshole to them in response.
[14:04]3A: You can tell them to fùck off without misgendering them though. You can say “Quite being so fûcking rude, it was an honest mistake.”

[14:07]T: I can do that but the way I do it is meant to drive home a point
Respect is earned, not given away
If you want me to respect your pronouns, that respect has to be earned
It’s not like I have some laundry list of unreasonable demands that must be met in order for me to respect someone’s pronouns. Just don’t be an ass about it. If someone isn’t capable of behaving civilly they have bigger issues than their gender identity going on (quoting [14:04]3A)
[14:11]3: I don’t think you’re trying to be an asshole, but you can not respect someone without attack their discriminated category.
I’m fully with you on the fact that people screaming at someone accidentally misgendering them isn’t chill. It’s a disservice to the community really. Most of the time, when people do that it’d be becaus:
a. They’re an asshole.
b. They’re dealing with so much other stuff that they’re unable to respond healthily to the stress of their identity being invalidated even by mistake.
In both cases, they shouldn’t be rude.
However, calling someone by their proper pronouns isn’t something you can give and take away. At least it shouldn’t be.

The three players were given an opportunity to respond to the complaint. Their responses were recorded:

"I mean I haven’t really said anything hurtful in my opinion and if others have perceived that I said something hurtful I didn’t mean it to be hurtful and it wasn’t my intention. I believe that people have the right to chose what they want to do, if they want to dress a certain way, identify as a certain gender, etc and I support them in doing that as we live in the land of the free.

I mean if the comment was about let’s allow 13 year olds to drink, smoke, and drive it was pointing out the hypocrisy in relation to the argument about puberty blockers being allowed for people under 18 since it has major life altering potential and is a very big decision such as driving, drinking, and smoking are also big life decisions which can effect people later in life. I believe that the decision shouldn’t be allowed for people under 18 as people have many regrets later in life. Other people have shared the similar opinions with me such as Turkey and Kalmar.

I haven’t said any hurtful statements such as slurs, saying people can’t be transgender, etc. I have never said that people can’t be transgender, never said any slurs, etc. The whole discussion was about puberty blockers which is a major life choice that shouldn’t be allowed for someone under 18 to decide.

Also isn’t the whole point of a discussion channel is to discuss opinions but then when I discuss an opinion I get perceived as being hurtful even though that the statement is not hurtful and it’s about ongoing issues/debates in the country. If people state an opinion in the discussion channel they should be expected to receive an opinion back."

"I have indeed already said something in discussion, apologising for it. I am aware it may have been hurtful, but I attempted to remain respectful. I contradicted my faith and beliefs that day, and also showed a lack of care for my responsibilities as a practicing Sikh. I do regret it, and I hope that you understand that. The link to my apology is below:

really sincerely hope I haven't done anything to seriously harm people. I have taken some time off from the discussion here the past couple of days to research and reconsider my opinion on this matter. I looked into myself and deep into my faith and I have decided to take a u-turn. I have said some things that are opposed to my faith, of which I had to speak to my nearest Granthi who has advised me. I would now like to say that I do indeed believe that this should be taught in school. Fundamentally, my faith believes in equality, social justice, service to humanity and tolerance of other faiths. The Christmas period has been stressful for me, and so emotions were running on a high. I am aware I have potentially hurt people here and I am really sincerely sorry for that."

Final Decision

Turkey has received a warning.

Kalmar, Malta, and Japan are to be banned indefinitely and ejected from Geopolity and the accompanying Discord.

Amendment on 30/12 2302 GMT: none of the three are barred from appealing the decision.

Amendment on 31/12 1624 GMT: the indefinite bans have been shortened to a 2-month ban, of which 1 week is mandatory. The 3 players will be banned for 1 week. They may appeal to have the remaining portion of the 2-month period stricken out pursuant to Rule 8.

Amendment on 31/12 1647 GMT: the stricken-out period will be a probationary period. Any infraction committed during this period will be met with an immediate banjection with no chance of appeal.

Opinions

Opinion A:

Starting, maintaining, or encouraging divisive arguments will not be permitted on the RMB under any circumstances. As such, these discussions should take place either through TG or in #discussion on the Regional Discord, in a civilized and respectful manner. Non compliance of this rule shall be penalized by the RA.

The terms "inflammatory" and "respectful" are key words.

Images 1, 2

If one does not engage in any kind of countermeasure to respond to the threat then from a factual point of view you are not defending yourself.

There is a complaint that the player's words here are a form of victim blaming. They equate an unwillingness or forbearance from physical self-defense to voluntary victimhood. I quote them verbatim: "But in my country being a victim is 100% a choice."

There is a distinction between a victim and one who does not defend themselves. Sometimes the choice may go hand in hand, for example when a mugger robs someone who finds it morally objectionable to resist. But it can diverge as well. A victim is simply a person who is harmed, injured, or otherwise wronged as a result of some action. A person who runs from, or shoots at, an attacking lion and gets gored is as much a victim as one whose house is broken into by burglars. Resistance with force or some other means to a transgression is not mutually exclusive with victimhood. It is possible for a person to protect themselves and also get victimized - for example, a person shooting an attacker in self defence but getting injured in the process. This appears, to me, to be an error of fact and reasoning. While a disagreeable and perhaps a distasteful expression of opinion I do not think it warrants a penalty. We cannot expect people to be factually accurate 100% of the time.

Images 3, 4

They relate to a player's departure from the server as a result of this contentious conversation.

Images 5, 6

[B: Japanada is promoting the claims that puberty blockers increase suicide rates, while the other side is arguing that dysphoria increases suicide. The statement about dysphoria is backed up by studies, while the claim about puberty blockers made by Canada is not...Neither side offered evidence, but we both know that his statement has not been proven (as far as I know there haven’t even been any studies assessing whether suicide and puberty blockers are connected). So, it’s an unsupported claim which promotes hate imo.]

It may be unsupported and bad technique but I don't think it can be characterized as a promotion of hate. Again, we can't penalize people for being disagreeable, mistaken, wrong, etc. To do so would be to assume that:

It would be impractical to say the least and maybe too onerous to ask for players. One should also be cognizant that these two requirements can work against hypothetically anyone. I do not think these images are indicative of wrongdoing.

Images 7, 9-11, 17-28, 31-35

I have no opinion on the matter. I reiterate the point made above. This highlights an individual's reservations about the teaching of gender identities in school, supported through anecdotal evidence from family members who are involved with the education system: Image 32. This is essentially a criticism of social policy, and as far as I know there is no Rule against that in Geo. And again, we should not assume that others' knowledge and views will be consistent with ours.

These points are well-constructed and a clear departure from the nonsensical remarks made earlier. In my opinion these do not constitute any rule breach.

Image 8

This seems to me to be inflammatory speech. There is no elaboration, no explanation, no rationalization of any kind preceding or following it - merely a blind assertion followed by dismissive rejoinders.

Images 12-16, 29-30

These messages add nothing other than ridiculous statements. Fish are not a gender and neither is Santa, nor is a Red Bull energy drink the same. Nobody is advocating for gonadal mutilation and the insinuation is frankly absurd. The language used serves only to ridicule and make fun of a demographic within the server, which crosses the threshold of a reasonable and respectful discussion. It is a blatant breach of Rule 3.

The question now is the sanction. Rule 3 prescribes a "banjection of the offending player[s]". It is clear and umambiguous. No more needs to be said.

Opinion B:

Before we begin, it is highly important contextually to acknowledge that inflammatory statements caused two members of the server to leave and five others to express their discomfort publicly.

Japan:
Images 5-6: The use of unsupported claims on suicide does not break the rules but it is extremely disingenuous and insensitive and a general warning should be had in regards to discussions of what affects suicide rates or other statistical claims, evidence should always be provided to firmly back up claims.
Images 12-16: Within these images, Japan I has chosen to be inflammatory on purpose through making light of trans and non-binary idenity with such jokes as "Can I identify as a RedBull Energy drink?". Such jokes are extremely insensitive and are in direct violation of Rule 3 and thusly are not to be tolerated within the Discord.

Conclusion:
Japan has broken Rule 3 and has a history of previous offenses. He has not shown remorse for his actions, and it is unlikely that his behavior will change as observed from his past actions. At this point, I personally believe that a ban is warranted.

Atlas:
Images 7, 10, 17, 32, & 32:
While Altas is fully entitled to his own opinions, it crosses a line when such opinions promote fear and hate and are not backed up by evidence. There is no campaign to force genders on children within any schooling system, and if one is to claim such a thing, I expect that evidence will be provided to back it up. That being said, accidentally spreading misinformation is not in violation of any rule.

Images 12-15:
Within these images, Atlas has engaged in ridicule or gender-diverse individuals. Remarks such as "Can I identify as a fish?" are in direct violation of Rule 3. Moreover, his and Japan’s "jokes” have caused the server to feel unsafe for some people and that is unacceptable.

Image 25:
The remark given in Image 25 is extremely hateful, implying that all non-binary individuals are confused, naïve, or delusional. This remark is an extreme violation of Rule 3 and must be dealt with accordingly.

Conclusion:
Although Atlas has expressed regret and sympathy for his actions, that does not change the amount and severity of his offenses. Thusly, I am of the current belief that Atlas should be banned with appeal for multiple violations of Rule 3.

Kalmar:

Image 8:
The remark stated by Kalmar is disingenuous, inflammatory, and in direct violation of Rule 3. Publicly invalidating the existence of the gender identities of server members is unacceptable. The server is intended to be a save environment for everyone.

Image 14:
Kalmar briefly participated in Atlas and Japan’s "jokes" by sharing a gif of a fish. This is disingenuous and contributing to the hostility, but compared to the other remarks I do not believe it directly violates Rule 3.

Conclusion:

Personally, I don’t think that Kalmar should be banned as he has explicitly acknowledged his mistake, apologized generally, and to specific people he hurt, as well as expressing a desire to educate himself and learn more about what it’s like to be trans. I think it would be more valuable to keep him in the server, and give him a chance to redeem himself rather than simply banning him. Furthermore, compared to Atlas and Japan, he has much less violations within the current incident.

As far as sentencing goes, I would recommend a timeout of a few hours. The harshest sentence I would be willing to accept would be a temporary ban of no more than 3 months. I am of the opinion that Kalmar should stay in the region.

Türkiye:

Although he could have most certainly spoken more respectfully, Türkiye did not violate any rules. All that is needed for him is a warning that the official policy of the server is against intentional misgendering regardless of his own polices on it. Unlike Atlas and Japan, Türkiye refrained from participating in the jokes ridiculing non-binary identities. I don’t believe he should be given any sentence.

Opinion C:

My opinion is that we have rules for a reason and they can't just break them and then expect not to get punished. It is regrettable but they agreed to follow the rules when they joined.

The Agency of Geopolity Customs

Edited: 1 year 116 days ago

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